Need technical help - Engine rebuild questions

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Need technical help - Engine rebuild questions

Postby dallarax19 » Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:14 am

Hey all,

Been a while since I last posted. Lots going on with the car with just about everything mechanical is rebuilt or replaced. Anyway I am back to the engine and would like some clarification on some points. I want confirmation that I am reading the main bearing torque speck correctly and would like feedback. This is the way I read the spec:

1) Torque to 30Nm
2) Complete torque by setting a dial torque angle gauge to 75deg and turn to zero (so this means to me rotate the nut another 285 deg)

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Is this correct? I would appreciate the feedback.

Brian
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Re: Need technical help - Engine rebuild questions

Postby dallarax19 » Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:02 pm

One other question, when do you put the block on an engine stand? It is clear when the lower block plate (girdle) is attached there are 4 attachment holes for the engine stand lugs but to get it to that point much of the heavy torquing and handling has been done. For where I am now I am just verifying the bearing clearance but it still requires the mains to be torqued down however there are only two attachment points on the back of the block (no lower block plate holes). What does everyone do to secure these animals for assembly during the piston and mains installation?

Thanks again,

Brian
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Re: Need technical help - Engine rebuild questions

Postby johnb » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:12 pm

dallarax19 wrote:Hey all,

Been a while since I last posted. Lots going on with the car with just about everything mechanical is rebuilt or replaced. Anyway I am back to the engine and would like some clarification on some points. I want confirmation that I am reading the main bearing torque speck correctly and would like feedback. This is the way I read the spec:

1) Torque to 30Nm
2) Complete torque by setting a dial torque angle gauge to 75deg and turn to zero (so this means to me rotate the nut another 285 deg)

Image

Is this correct? I would appreciate the feedback.

Brian



I'd agree that the MDR could be open to interpretation.
I have another manual (Revue Technique Automobile) which has this photo. I've enlarged it because it's not a very good photocopy. I would read this to mean, tighten to 3 mdaN followed by a further angular tightening of 75 degrees.

If anyone thinks this is an incorrect interpretation, please advise.
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Re: Need technical help - Engine rebuild questions

Postby johnb » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:17 pm

johnb wrote:
dallarax19 wrote:Hey all,

Been a while since I last posted. Lots going on with the car with just about everything mechanical is rebuilt or replaced. Anyway I am back to the engine and would like some clarification on some points. I want confirmation that I am reading the main bearing torque speck correctly and would like feedback. This is the way I read the spec:

1) Torque to 30Nm
2) Complete torque by setting a dial torque angle gauge to 75deg and turn to zero (so this means to me rotate the nut another 285 deg)

Image

Is this correct? I would appreciate the feedback.

Brian



I'd agree that the MDR could be open to interpretation.
I have another manual (Revue Technique Automobile) which has this photo. I've enlarged it because it's not a very good photocopy. I would read this to mean, tighten to 3 mdaN followed by a further angular tightening of 75 degrees.

If anyone thinks this is an incorrect interpretation, please advise.


Doesn't seem to be opening, try this.
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Re: Need technical help - Engine rebuild questions

Postby johnb » Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:00 pm

dallarax19 wrote:One other question, when do you put the block on an engine stand? It is clear when the lower block plate (girdle) is attached there are 4 attachment holes for the engine stand lugs but to get it to that point much of the heavy torquing and handling has been done. For where I am now I am just verifying the bearing clearance but it still requires the mains to be torqued down however there are only two attachment points on the back of the block (no lower block plate holes). What does everyone do to secure these animals for assembly during the piston and mains installation?

Thanks again,

Brian



I didn’t use an engine stand for the simple reason that I don’t have one. I assembled the engine on the bench and as it increased in weight, on a piece of timber on the garage floor.

I installed the crankshaft using spacer tubes on the studs to allow the bearing caps to be tightened.

The engine then turned on its side to insert the piston/liner assemblies into the block and fit the liner clamps. Big ends then connected and torqued.

Then transferred to the floor with crankshaft uppermost. Removed the bearing cap nuts and temporary spacer tubes. Attached straight edges to the block for alignment points for the lower block.

Applied sealant to the block bottom face and lowered the lower block into position against the straight edges. Fitted the stud nuts and washers and torqued and angle tightened.

Removed the straight edges and continued with the bottom end build.

The photos below are in the same order as this description. I don’t have the hang yet of placing photos in line with the text.

Suffice it to say there are probably better ways of doing it.
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Re: Need technical help - Engine rebuild questions

Postby dallarax19 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:05 pm

John thanks! That helps, the Volvo refurbishment book also indicated 73 degrees too but I wanted to be very sure. I could not see how it was possible to try to compress the whole metal sandwich approx 1 mm (pitch of the thread and almost 1 full turn of the nut) but as I mentioned before this engine is new to me and the architecture is quite different than what I am used to. In any case it is cheaper to ask and verify than second guess when the engine is back together and in the car.

At the moment I am rolling the lump around on a towel on my table doing as you described. My bits are also painted aluminum color so your photos and my table top look very much alike. I will have to get over my concern of flipping it around with the floating liners held in by a light strap of metal but I suppose that is how it is done and has always been done.

I have some fresh intake valves coming and then I will reassemble the heads. I will be posting some performance questions on Martins PRV post later. I appreciate the help and thanks again!
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Re: Need technical help - Engine rebuild questions

Postby johnb » Sat Oct 31, 2015 6:23 pm

dallarax19 wrote:

At the moment I am rolling the lump around on a towel on my table doing as you described. My bits are also painted aluminum color so your photos and my table top look very much alike. I will have to get over my concern of flipping it around with the floating liners held in by a light strap of metal but I suppose that is how it is done and has always been done.


I would have thought you’d be allright with the liner clamps so long as they’re reasonably rigid. They should keep the liners in place as, I’m sure you’ll know, the liners are set proud of the block face.

I used some old shelf bracket support channel for the liner clamps.

After I’d fitted the sump, I turned the engine right way up and lifted it onto the trolley in the background of the photos above. The engine build was then completed on the trolley and when it came to reinstallation in the car I transferred it to a motorcycle lifter to raise it into place.
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Re: Need technical help - Engine rebuild questions

Postby clee » Sat Oct 31, 2015 6:35 pm

Liners will be fine .All the straps are doing is stopping them from falling out,no great strength needed for that.
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Re: Need technical help - Engine rebuild questions

Postby dallarax19 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:04 am

OK on to next steps, is it possible to attach the engine to the gearbox and install it as a power pack into the car? If possible, is it easy or is it better to put the gear box in first and then install the engine? What is the standard practice to reinstall the engine/gearbox? I am not too excited about trying to wrestle the engine onto the end of the trans.
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Re: Need technical help - Engine rebuild questions

Postby johnb » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:47 pm

dallarax19 wrote:OK on to next steps, is it possible to attach the engine to the gearbox and install it as a power pack into the car? If possible, is it easy or is it better to put the gear box in first and then install the engine? What is the standard practice to reinstall the engine/gearbox? I am not too excited about trying to wrestle the engine onto the end of the trans.


I only have experience of the way I installed the gearbox and engine in my A310. There are probably other equally good, or better, ways of doing it. For various reasons I didn’t want to buy an engine crane, insufficient space to store it, not sure whether there was enough headroom in the garage for it, etc, etc. I did it all with a motorcycle lifter that doesn’t take up much space and wasn’t expensive. The car needed to be elevated to work on the chassis and things underneath so it made sense to remove the gearbox and engine downwards, separately.
It wouldn’t be possible to remove the gearbox/engine downwards, bolted together, due to the chassis cross-member, near the engine supports, being in the way. I think, on your Phase II car, this cross-member is also a welded part of the chassis.
If you look at your previous thread, in July 2013, you’ll see how the gearbox was reinstalled on my A310.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6576
By the time the engine was ready for installation I’d already bolted the detachable cross member, that’s under the centre of the gearbox into the chassis. The wooden blocks at the clutch housing end of the box could then be removed and the gearbox was then supported with wooden packers on the detachable cross member and, obviously, the mounts at the nose of the box.
The engine installation was fairly straightforward using the lifter. I manhandled the engine off the assembly trolley and onto the lifter, then levelled the engine with pieces of wood under the sump. With the lifter in its lowest position the engine was pushed under the rear bodywork and then lifted to the height of the gearbox, but clear of it and with the engine mounts clear of their chassis plates. The engine mounts were fitted loosely at this stage.
IMG_0184.JPG

The engine was then pushed forward, with the mounts clearing the top of the chassis plates, until the gearbox shaft engaged with the clutch. It took a few attempts to get the alignment just right but it went in without a problem. I then bolted the two together, lifted them slightly to remove the wooden packers under the gearbox and then lowered the lifter so that the engine mounts sat on the plates that were then bolted into place. The lifter was then lowered away as the engine was now in place.
IMG_0196.JPG


You might be able to install the gearbox/engine as one piece from above but it looks as if you’d have to angle it, with the gearbox nose down to manoeuvre it over the chassis cross-member. I don’t know whether the engine would clear the bodywork at the rear of the car, not having tried it. Might be worth trying, as it isn’t a big job to connect or disconnect the gearbox and engine.
Before you join the engine and gearbox make sure that the two small alignment sleeves are in place in the back of the engine block or in the mating holes in the gearbox. You can watch these relative to their locating holes in the gearbox clutch housing as the two go together. You can see them in one of the photos above. They’re at 20 to and 20 past the hour at the lower edge of the block, near to where the heads fit, just outside the two straight edges.
Excuse the long-winded explanation.
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Re: Need technical help - Engine rebuild questions

Postby dallarax19 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:42 pm

Hey John,

Thanks again! I appreciate the walk through your process. Marrying the engine to transmissions is not my favorite job. On my Fiat it took me 12 hours to align a new race clutch a few years back. I kept stoning the lead in on the disk to knock down the burrs and FINALLY the clouds parted and it lined up. Mind you I have an engine hoist with and adjustable balancer and it still took me that long. The race disk was a special case but even with stock disks that job is a challenge. Access is better with the Alpine but I don't want to damage the work I did on the paint and finish trying to get it into place. From a previous post I got that I will need to lead the gearbox into place with a lift jack or similar by lifting the unit and sliding it forward into the car. I also saw the cross member wrapped in cardboard (I think that may have been one of your pics). My concern is even though the sides of the gearbox are secured the bell housing end is free to float up/down and side to side, with the lift jack under it, making the alignment of the input shaft a bit of a chore. Hopefully I am wrong with how much it moves and it will just slide into place. I am running out of warm weather so that may really take place in the spring, we will see. In the mean time I will continue to do my homework.
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Re: Need technical help - Engine rebuild questions

Postby johnb » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:01 pm

dallarax19 wrote: I also saw the cross member wrapped in cardboard (I think that may have been one of your pics).

Yes, it was one of my photos. The cardboard was there to protect the new chassis paint.

dallarax19 wrote: My concern is even though the sides of the gearbox are secured the bell housing end is free to float up/down and side to side, with the lift jack under it, making the alignment of the input shaft a bit of a chore. Hopefully I am wrong with how much it moves and it will just slide into place. I am running out of warm weather so that may really take place in the spring, we will see. In the mean time I will continue to do my homework.


You're quite correct about the bell housing end of the gearbox being able to move around. I didn't find this a problem because as you bring the engine towards the gearbox the engine mounts relative to the chassis mounting plates semi-align the engine and then it's easy to move the bell housing sideways, or jack it up/down to suit the engine before you engage the gearbox shaft with the clutch. The alignment sleeves I mentioned also help in visually aligning the two before they're engaged. It wasn't that difficult. I'd never done it before with this size of engine, only with smaller 4 cylinder engines, and I managed to do it without any problems.

As I commented above, you might still be able to install the combination from above.
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Re: Need technical help - Engine rebuild questions

Postby darrenbiggs » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:10 pm

How did you get the engine out in the first place Brian?

Easiest option with the GTA is to drop the rear subframe and have the engine and gearbox all built up on that. Then simply hoist the engine, gearbox, subframe (with all the suspension still attached) into place and re-bolt.

Or am I missing something? Sorry if I have.

SimonTaylor became very adept at getting the car raised enough to drop the subframe and box out together and then refit without much trouble. There are some posts on here somewhere with the details.
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Re: Need technical help - Engine rebuild questions

Postby johnb » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:37 pm

Hi Darren,
The A310 doesn't have a subframe like the GTA. Might be a lot easier if it did!
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Re: Need technical help - Engine rebuild questions

Postby simontaylor » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:55 pm

Yup, its pretty easy, I have posted pictures before.
Actually it was out again in April this year for a little titivation to the lower edges of the turrets.
All done now and engine/box/subframe all back in in one weekend.

Onto the next project now.
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